Recently in the city to perform at Black Dog Easy Evening concert, the legendary John McLaughlin of The 4th Dimension spoke at length about his journey in soulful tunes and the present scenario of Jazz music in India and abroad. He was joined by keyboardist and drummer Gary Husband, Drummer Ranjit Barot and bassist Etienne M’Bappe, who together make up The 4th Dimension.

Excerpts from the conversation:

Can you tell us something about your Indian connection?

John McLaughlin: I do not know why I feel so connected with India, perhaps its culture, music or something that I cannot express in word. The beauty of Indian classical and jazz music is the room for its improvisation. So we can fuse them nicely for any composition. Indian music is more spiritual. The essence of Indian music lays on its inclusive nature. Music is the result of collective effort. I have toured with many musicians and orchestra and played as solo guitarist. But the impact that comes out from the collective act of different musicians is extraordinary. A musician is always trying to communicate. A magical moment happens when we are doing music. That comes from a very special character and approach towards life from all the musicians whom we are collaborating with. It is the same the way a pianist can have access to keyboard sounds thanks to advance technology. However, when I used guitar synthesizer during my Shakti days (his fusion band), especially when Shankar Mahadevan used to do the alaap, to bring the western harmony. We have to take a risk in lot of musical situation to go for such experimentation, especially when it comes to fusing with Indian classical music. It is sad that over the period of time Indian classical music has become a place for a musician and its companion. One has to take a step ahead to reach to the next level.

You have had a five decade long career and much of it has been deeply intertwined with India. Comment.

We were in one family in another incarnation and I think he could be right. Why do I feel so attached to him, I don’t know I have done since before you were born. We were here for “Remember Shakti” in 2012. The Fourth Dimension has never played out here. In the context of the festival in February, Zakir Hussain organized after the passing of his father and we played a number of times and also a recording I made here in Chennai and I had to get Ranjit to record on this recording. This is before he was in the band but after this recording it was just a matter of time. Actually, at that time our paths were divergent with regard to the drummer we had at that time so it was a wonderful opportunity. Ranjit is a western jazz or fusion drummer but because of his training and his schooling he has got all these ancient tradition of Indian school. That is all in his background so he is able to bring all that into the music. It’s wonderful.

When you talk about Indian classical music, I want to know how you connect with that and your connection between Indian classical music and your style of songwriting.

John: It has been known for years that Indian classical music and jazz music have a lot of common ground. One of the fundamental aspects of music is improvisation and you have written it masters of it percussionist and rhythm, masters over here the only difference really is the harmonic side that we have in the West, but I was not the first who dove into the traditions of Indian music. Coltrane…..John Coltrane was a real pioneer. No coincidence that his son is called Ravi because he was a great admirer of Pandit Ravi Shankar, but we have common ground. The other side of course is if you want to bring the spiritual dimension into it. Indian music is all inclusive. It includes every aspect of a human being, from the most capricious to the most profound, it is spiritual. In jazz music it was Coltrane again and I think another small impact of Indian culture on him, because after that recording of Love Supreme with that one record he was able to integrate the spiritual dimension into jazz music and in a way that itself brought Indian music and jazz music together. You listen to what Coltrane was doing from 1960 in a piece called Impressions, it’s like two ragas for the entire piece and I have one recording twenty seven minutes long some say its Indian to me I know it’s a very long piece we tried to keep it a little shorter than that but there is so much in common between the two musical cultures

How has your journey been and your interaction with John McLaughlin?

Ranjit Barot: I think like everybody else this group has been impacted by the music that he has been creating for so many years we were all deeply feels something larger it has shaped the way we approach music and the way we want to be as musicians. I’ve been a fan of his for years and then when I had a chance to meet him through Zakirbhai who I thank for that opportunity and we got interactive at one stage and we felt very comfortable, very personal, and what can I say but that it was the most incredible experience of my life not withstanding all the other musicians in the band who are incredible and I have been a fan of all of them

So Gary how is it working with the band?

Gary: I met him (John) twelve years ago and he was playing with the jazz musician Joe Zawinul which you may know from Weather Report also from his recording with Miles Davis in Cannonball. And I went to see a concert of Joe’s and I know Joe from the sixties and I saw him and we became friends at that time and it was just waiting for an opportunity to get into the band, and I don’t know how many years about four - five

John: You should come to the concert for that to see what a musician he is. I waited for five or six years, he is a very busy fellow working with different groups. I’ve known him about twenty years and I knew him as a great drummer which he is, and one day he send me a CD of this solo piano….terrible (the group laughs). I hate people like that, they can do anything. Multi talented, I studied the Veena with Dr Ramanathan and I had the chance to study with panditji and whom I had the chance to study with in the seventies and I tried. I’m not able to play two instruments. It’s a special talent and we have someone here who plays two diverse instruments at a very high level.

At the same time (laughter).

How does that happen? If you acquire a bit of compartmentalization if at one stage you are on the keyboards and then you get onto percussion?

John: Is it called schizophrenia? (Laughter)

Gary: I’ve been playing both instruments for so long now that instead of being two separate entities they both represent a whole to me. All of it is covered within the two instruments. They are like two parallel forces.

Ranjit: I knew Gary as a drummer. Initially I didn’t know about his piano side. I’ve heard a lot of drummers and I was immediately drawn to his playing. There was something very articulate about him.

John: Enough about him (laughter). No at the level that he has he can hired by the drummer Lenny White as a pianist and he can be hired by drummer Lenny Whites Joe Samaradzo the pianist with Michael Brecker as a drummer. That is a very special talent.

There have been collaborations with various musicians from Hendrix down to Aldi Meola to Zakirbhai and everybody.

John: It’s more of a collective experience than collaboration. I have played solo and it’s enjoyable up to a degree. Even I have toured with orchestras as a soloist on acoustic guitar and it’s pleasurable to a degree but nothing can replace what we were speaking about before, this improvisation. Improvisation, by definition, is a collective act. Yes, you cannot solo in improvisation, but it is lonely out there. The musicians are able to communicate spontaneously and hopefully some magical thing happens, you could call it inspiration or whatever. It can only happen as a collective experience, it can only happen to me as a collective experience. Such is the fact that these gentlemen are such amazing musicians, but you need a special character, and perception, an attitude about life because it can only be in music how you are in life. You cannot be two people. To have a desire for the collective experience is the most important thing. And you have it in Indian music, when you hear Panditji and Aadaji together. Wonderful.

Ranji: Sajidbhai and Sahed Parvezthat’s a great combination. But also in addition to what Johnji just said it also requires you to be brave and fearless also and have faith and not just confidence. The person leading requires you to step up when necessary in different musical situations and in Indian music you are a soloist and accompanist, nobody is really taking risks. I suppose that’s one way to go but if you don’t take risks you don’t find the unknown and you don’t find some special stuff and that’s where we want to go every night. You take risks; there will be moments where you have to grapple with the situation on your own

John: You call it falling on your face (laughter)

John: You are in your own momentary confidence and competence to express yourself, your persevere and you go to that place. It’s becoming rare to have that situation.

What music have you grown up listening to?

John: I have grown up in a music garden as our generation experienced and explored good music with Beatles, John Coltrane, and Miles…. But now I want young generation to come up with new musical idea and concept that will help them to grow as musician. It should not be about just playing the perfect note but interacting among each others. It should come out from their passion or else it sounds shallow! As a listener, I always try to feel musicians’ life through their music. So it is not the notation that I am listening to, but knowing the person, his sole though music! Discipline is freedom. Talking about compositional aspect, in every composition structure, there are some parts that hold the whole composition like an anchor. When it comes to collaboration, everyone has to follow that. So, that they can enjoy the musical freedom of creativeness. As a musician I want them to feel free with their idea. That is how we can create some beautiful musical moment. That’s the power of improvisation. Do it better? All I have is today, the moment I am living. You never know what is going to happen tomorrow, maybe I will disappear. It is a utopian dream that there will be a better tomorrow that we live for. So I am trying to make this moment happen with the best music. A reason to worry is that Jazz music has been considered as one of the music for elite which is losing its glory due to lack of western music education among new generation and platform to perform in our country.

Do you see a change in the music scene right now, especially the Indian jazz scene?

John: I would like to see many new generation western musicians are taking interest in Indian music and exploring various aspects of that. The musical exchange was happening in 60’s between Indian and western world. But with time things are going to a different direction. Jazz the world over has increasingly become banal.

Ranjit: There were some good artists who forced to change their musical direction as no record company was ready to sign them. This free access to online music is killing the record industry. One has to take a job of a taxi driver to survive! Or you have to compromise musically.

John: That’s also true in jazz music. I am from the older generation but I look for the younger musicians. To look at new ideas and concepts that I grew up in the sixties with where it was a fantastic garden of music and ideas flourishing whether it was with the Beatles or Coltrane or Miles. Jazz has now become a bit kind of marketed. You have smooth jazz, cool jazz and funky jazz. And you listen to it and it’s riddled with clichés and the drummer you can’t feel him interacting with the band. People are listening to these as they have access to them.

Ranjit: He’s a drum machine (taps out a fixed rhythm to demonstrate). The jazz wave of the 70s and 80s, pioneered by the late Niranjan Jhaveri, is surely better than the state of affairs today. It has become elitist. There are no proper venues at all, the only one we had Rang Bhavan has closed down. Today we’re looking for venues and sponsors. We need to make the genre more accessible. We need to create more awareness and give the youth more spaces to learn Western music. It’s only when you watch such artistes that you’ll be impacted. That will happen if we create more space for them to come and visit us.

John: Its ‘banao’, there’s nothing there, it’s empty, shallow. We all grew up with a character and passion because without passion, there’s no gasoline in the car, it’s not going to run, and just coast along, without the passion, the music loses its meaning. Otherwise, we are just playing notes. You go to a concert and you look at somebody playing, you want to feel that person’s life.

Interviewed by Verus Ferreira

Photos by Verus Ferreira